Honda revine in F1!!!

[Spoon Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Spoon]

Marusia are motor Ferrari, Lotus are Mercedes, deci nah

Second free practice results - 2015 British Formula 1 Grand Prix
Pos. Driver Team Time Laps
1. N. Rosberg Mercedes 01:34.155 33
2. K. Raikkonen Ferrari 01:34.502 28
3. S. Vettel Ferrari 01:34.522 26
4. L. Hamilton Mercedes 01:34.621 22
5. D. Kvyat Red Bull 01:35.009 24
6. D. Ricciardo Red Bull 01:35.153 21
7. M. Verstappen Toro Rosso 01:35.300 35
8. N. Hulkenberg Force India 01:35.387 33
9. C. Sainz Jr. Toro Rosso 01:35.866 37
10. F. Massa Williams 01:36.147 32
11. P. Maldonado Lotus 01:36.164 32
12. V. Bottas Williams 01:36.183 32
13. S. Perez Force India 01:36.351 28
14. R. Grosjean Lotus 01:36.728 21
15. F. Alonso McLaren 01:36.731 18
16. F. Nasr Sauber 01:36.822 23
17. J. Button McLaren 01:37.196 16
18. M. Ericsson Sauber 01:37.327 36
19. W. Stevens Manor 01:38.279 21
20. R. Merhi Manor 01:39.878 20

[Delphi Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Delphi]

Alonso a reusit locul 5 (10 puncte), iar Button locul 9 (2 puncte) la Hungaroring. Sa o tina tot asa!

[Spoon Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Spoon]

noroc cu accidentele si penalizarile, altfel nu intrau in puncte; macar la fiabilitate au facut un mic pas inainte
Race results - 2015 Hungarian Formula 1 Grand Prix
Pos. Driver Team Time
1. S. Vettel Ferrari 1:46:09.985
2. D. Kvyat Red Bull +15.748
3. D. Ricciardo Red Bull +25.084 +9.336
4. M. Verstappen Toro Rosso +44.251 +19.167
5. F. Alonso McLaren +49.079 +4.828
6. L. Hamilton Mercedes +52.025 +2.946
7. R. Grosjean Lotus +58.578 +6.553
8. N. Rosberg Mercedes +58.876 +0.298
9. J. Button McLaren +1:07.028 +8.152
10. M. Ericsson Sauber +1:09.130 +2.102
11. F. Nasr Sauber +1:13.458 +4.328
12. F. Massa Williams +1:14.278 +0.820
13. V. Bottas Williams +1:20.228 +5.950
14. P. Maldonado Lotus +1:25.142 +4.914
15. R. Merhi Manor +2 Laps
16. W. Stevens Manor +2 Laps

[Delphi Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Delphi]

Cursa din Belgia:

"Honda promises undelivered

McLaren's engine partner Honda have produced an upgraded power-unit for this weekend and F1 boss Yasuhisa Arai claimed it would put them level on performance with the Ferrari engine.

That raised some eyebrows up and down the paddock, and as suspected Arai's claims turned out to be wildly optimistic.

The internal combustion engine part of the power unit is marginally improved, thanks to a new combustion design, but McLaren are still hamstrung by the huge shortfall in power and capacity of Honda's hybrid system.

Jenson Button and Fernando Alonso could manage only 17th and 18th places in qualifying.

Button was 0.442secs quicker than Alonso, who missed all of final practice with an exhaust failure, after what the Englishman described as "the best lap I've done for a long time".

The lack of hybrid performance, which means the engine runs out of electric boost long before the end of the straights, in combination with a full-throttle percentage round the lap of 70% meant McLaren were further off the pace than at any race since the Spanish Grand Prix in early May, at 103.5% of the pole position time.

They will start from the back because of penalties for changing many parts of the engine through the weekend, with each change having incurring either 10 or five places defined by a complicated system.

In total, the two drivers were hit with 105 grid places of penalties - 55 for Alonso and 50 for Button. But the punishment is academic because, following a revision of the penalty system last month, they will suffer no extra in-race punishment for not serving the full penalty.

Honda has fitted two of the new engines to each car this weekend to give itself a bigger pool of the upgraded design for the rest of the season."

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/formula1/34028115

[BV26CAT Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close BV26CAT]

Din pacate motorul cel nou nu pare un mare progres fata de versiunea anterioara. Trebuie sa recunosc ca nu prea inteleg cum de a dat-o Honda in bara atata de rau avand in vedere ca stia cu siguranta puterea dezvoltata anul trecut de motorul Mercedes. Trebuiau din start sa il proiecteze pe al lor cu aceeasi putere + 10%. Acum le lipsesc in jur de 120-130 de cai din cate se pare. Sau mai este o varianta, motorul sa fie OK dar sa nu poata fi utilizat la capacitatea maxima datorita sasiului design "size zero" impus de Mclaren. Va trebui sa asteptam pana la cursa din Singapore ca sa vedem daca s-au mai imbunatatit lucrurile.

[Delphi Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Delphi]

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/formula1/34164674

"McLaren driver Fernando Alonso has revealed the extent to which engine partner Honda is responsible for the team's lack of pace this season.

The McLarens qualified 16th and 17th, with Jenson Button 0.096 seconds ahead of Alonso but 2.661secs off Lewis Hamilton's pole position for Mercedes.

Alonso said: "On a circuit that has six corners, on the GPS, we lose two or three tenths in those corners.

"The rest of the three seconds, we need to find on the straights."

The two-time champion's remarks are the first official explanation from McLaren-Honda as to exactly how the pace gap to the front is split between the team's car and engine.
Fernando Alonso

Fernando Alonso (left) has only picked up 11 points this season, while Jenson Button has six points

It confirms information from insiders that the car is pretty competitive - among the four fastest chassis along with Red Bull, Mercedes and Ferrari - but that the engine is a long way down on power.

Insiders say that the Honda at its best is at least 100bhp down on the Mercedes - and that the hybrid element of the power-unit, which accounts for 160-180bhp of the total power of the engine, runs out of boost part-way down all but the shortest of straights.

That means the McLaren-Honda is lagging nearly 300bhp behind the Mercedes for a significant proportion of the straights on the Monza track, and is by some measure the worst engine in F1.

Honda returned to F1 this season for the first time since pulling their factory team out at the end of 2008.

The company have struggled to come to terms with the complex hybrid engines introducing in to the sport in 2014.

In its defence, it has been pointed out by McLaren that while Mercedes started developing its engine as long ago as 2010 for introduction in 2014, Honda did not start work on its unit until the early part of 2013.

Alonso, who joined McLaren this year on a three-year deal worth $40m (£26m) a year, insists that he remains confident Honda will become competitive in the end.

"Every day we do so many interviews and so many of them are so negative because we are out of Q1 and we are so slow," he said.

"This is a work in progress. We don't take every weekend as an opportunity or a look in the times and the position. We know we are last. It is frustrating for everyone in the team but it is a period we have to go through together.

"We are moving in the right direction. We'll see how long we need to be competitive and how long I will stay in F1."

Alonso's former team Ferrari, who he left at the end of 2014 two years before the end of his contract after negotiating an early release, qualified second and third at Monza.

But when it was suggested to him he might feel embarrassed at his decision because Ferrari were doing so well, Alonso told BBC Sport: "Well, doing well is relative - compared to who?

"Compared to us they are doing really well, but compared to what we did in the five years we were together they are not doing anything better.

"We were leading the championship a couple of years here in Monza. Now they are third, 100 points behind the Mercedes. Congratulations to them but they should not be happy being 100 points behind Mercedes.

Honda F1 boss Yasuhisa Arai admitted that the deployment of the hybrid system was the biggest problem.

"We have already found what is the weak point of the power-unit and we have already started work on it," he said.

He said the biggest part of that work would happen for 2016 but that Honda hoped to add small improvements to the hybrid system during the remaining seven races of this season."

[Delphi Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Delphi]

Foarte interesant: http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/formula1/34208407


"Why Honda engine is a nightmare for McLaren & the solutions

For some months now, McLaren-Honda drivers Fernando Alonso and Jenson Button have pinpointed the Singapore Grand Prix as one of their best chances to score decent points this season.

The beleaguered team's poor form in the last two races in Belgium and Italy resulted in a stormy news conference after qualifying in Monza, in which Honda F1 boss Yasuhisa Arai was given a severe grilling over his engine's lack of performance.

Button, ever the politician, tried to put the situation into perspective.

"In two weeks' time," he said, "we could go to a race and be fighting for fifth and sixth place and we probably wouldn't be having this conversation."

So how can Alonso and Button be fighting for 15th and 16th places in Italy, but also hope to be half a field's worth of positions better off in Singapore next weekend?

Let's look at the problems McLaren - and particularly Honda - have and try to explain.

Honda's power nightmares

It is no secret that McLaren's biggest issue is the lack of competitiveness of the Honda engine, in the Japanese company's first season back in Formula 1 since 2008.

Alonso laid the situation bare at the weekend, revealing information from the GPS speed traces used by teams to analyse how they compare to their rivals.

"There are so many areas we need to improve," the two-time champion said, "but on a circuit that has six corners, on the GPS, we lose two or three tenths in those corners. The rest of the three seconds we need to find on the straights."

To understand why this is so bad at high-speed Monza, but will have less of an effect on Singapore's streets, we need to explain the specifics of Honda's struggles with the turbo hybrid engine rules introduced into F1 in 2014.

Honda returned to F1 this season for the first time since pulling their factory team out at the end of 2008

It's going to get a bit technical, but please bear with us - it's worth it.

F1 engines are 1.6-litre V6 turbos with two separate but inter-linked hybrid elements recovering and redeploying energy that would otherwise be wasted.

There is an electric motor linked to the rear axle - the MGU-K - which recovers kinetic energy during braking and stores it in a battery for use later. Power deployed from the battery via the "K" is limited to 120kw.

There is a second electric motor - called the MGU-H (for heat) - which recovers energy from the turbocharger. The regulations do not impose a limit on how much energy is deployed to the wheels from this and so it can be considered as 'free' energy.

Honda's fundamental problem is that it cannot harvest enough energy to deploy along the entire length of all but the shortest of straights.

That means Alonso and Button run out of hybrid power - an immediate loss of at least 160bhp - part-way along the longest straights. Which explains why their rivals drive past them as if they are standing still in places such as Monza and Spa.

This is much less of a problem in Singapore (or Hungary, for example, where Alonso finished fifth ) because the straights are shorter - so the 'clipping point' as it is called might not be reached, or if it is, it will be only at the very end of the straights.
Why is the Honda so short of energy?

Honda has produced a very compact engine, part of a McLaren design philosophy to keep everything as small as possible for aerodynamic advantage.

But this has led to compromises in the engine design.

To keep the engine as small as possible, Honda built the turbo and MGU-H as one unit, and housed it together with the compressor, which feeds air into the turbo, within the vee of the engine cylinders.

It is a similar philosophy to that used by standard-setters Mercedes.
The difference is that Mercedes has a large compressor at the front of the engine joined to the turbo at the rear by an unusually long shaft, from which the MGU-H, sited in the vee, recovers its energy.

The Mercedes design has a number of advantages, which we detailed in an article last year.

Honda has a more compact layout - to fit the compressor inside the cylinder bank, it needed to be made much smaller than Mercedes', so it lacks efficiency. Its maximum revs are also limited.

Because of its location, Honda cannot enlarge it without changing the design of the engine - and to do that, it needs more engine 'tokens' under F1's complex system of development restrictions than it has available this year.
Is Honda's hybrid system the engine's only problem?

Beyond the hybrid system's shortcomings, Honda's internal combustion engine (ICE) is also lacking compared to the best units from Mercedes and Ferrari.

By how much, however, not all agree.

Mercedes is said to have a significant advantage, just on the ICE, of 10-15bhp over Ferrari and as much as 50-70bhp over Renault.

Arai has said he believes Honda's ICE is in the region of 20-25bhp more powerful than Renault's. Other engineers say that the two are very close, that Honda was perhaps marginally ahead before an upgrade in July moved Renault back in front by about 25bhp.

Adding the 700bhp Mercedes is reputed to develop from its ICE, to the regulated 160bhp of MGU-K power and the extra 'free' electrical energy from the MGU-H of as much as 30-40bhp, gives a total Mercedes power output in the region of 890-900bhp.
Renault 2014 V6

Renault's power unit is considered to be the weakest of the three engine manufacturers

Renault's and Ferrari's hybrid systems are believed to be competitive with Mercedes, which puts them at about 830-840bhp (Renault) and 880-890bhp (Ferrari).

McLaren's problems become clear when all this information is applied to the Honda engine.

It is in the region of 60-80bhp down on ICE power alone - in addition to a significant shortfall of MGU-H power, and the loss of all hybrid power (160bhp from the K plus whatever its H produces) at a given point on the straights.

Can Honda fix its problems for 2016?

Honda has plans to work for the remainder of this year on both the performance of the internal combustion engine and the efficiency of the hybrid system. But, because the problem is so fundamental, any improvement will be limited and it will be next year before a significant step forward can be expected.

The big question is whether Honda can redesign its engine for next season to enable a turbo-compressor-MGU-H layout of the required efficiency.

"That is the objective of the development," says Arai. "We know the compressor is the biggest issue we are trying to solve. I know how difficult it was at Silverstone, Spa and Monza and how much we need to get that working.

Fernando Alonso (left) has only picked up 11 points this season, while Jenson Button has six points

"We know looking at the data what other cars are deploying and how much. So obviously the minimum objective is there."

Sources close to McLaren have questioned Honda's sense of urgency in dealing with the problem and whether it fully grasps the size of its deficit; whether they are right to do so will only begin to become clear next season.

What about the car?

In Singapore, Honda's deployment shortfall is likely to be an issue only on the longest straight between Turns Five and Seven, and perhaps not even there.

But if McLaren were losing 0.2-0.3 seconds a lap through the six corners of Monza, that margin will clearly increase proportionally through Singapore's 23.

Engineers rate the McLaren as about the fourth or fifth best chassis in F1 - behind Mercedes, Red Bull and Toro Rosso, in the region of a Ferrari.

But that's not to say McLaren do not have car problems.

The MP4-30 has more drag compared to the best cars but less downforce, and it struggles for traction out of corners.

In recent years, McLaren have suffered for pursuing a policy of chasing maximum rather than usable downforce.

The problem this tends to create is that while the car is theoretically faster, judging by its maximum downforce levels, the drivers cannot access all this performance out on the track.

Honda's F1 boss Yasuhisa Arai was grilled by journalists about Honda's reliability recently

That's because the more heavily worked airflow is more sensitive to being disrupted - which leads to a sudden loss of grip, and therefore drivers' confidence.

The most successful cars tend to be ones that pursue what is called 'friendly' downforce - a lower theoretical maximum, but more downforce accessible to the driver more of the time, because the aerodynamic platform of the car is stable.

This second philosophy is how Red Bull operated through their years of success, and how Mercedes also do now.

McLaren said at the start of the year that they would also adopt this approach, having realised what they were doing wrong.

But insiders say that since it became clear that the chassis lacked overall downforce, the team have reverted to the bad old ways, chasing theoretical numbers rather than practical performance.

This is almost certainly why the car is run with very stiff suspension compared to the likes of Red Bull and Mercedes - if the aero platform is inherently unstable, you want to control the pitch of the car as much as possible, to try to reduce the instances when the airflow 'stalls' and downforce is lost.

It is also notable that McLaren have still not caught up with the latest front wing philosophy, as pioneered by Mercedes and successfully followed with a mid-season upgrade by Red Bull.

Looking forward

This year's car layout was conceived around the compact Honda engine layout before McLaren's chief engineer Peter Prodromou joined from Red Bull last autumn.

Honda is designing a larger compressor and revised turbo and MGU-H into an engine that will retain the same fundamental architecture, with the aim of keeping the package as compact as possible.

Prodromou, meanwhile, is working on eradicating the flaws in the McLaren car design, focusing on the frontal aerodynamics and creating the strong airflows around the car into the area around the rear wheels and floor that are so critical to performance - and where Red Bull have traditionally excelled.

Although McLaren and Honda bosses are sticking to their mantra of "one team" in public, whispers of internal tensions are beginning to emerge.

In the circumstances - McLaren's worst season in 35 years - this is hardly surprising. McLaren and Honda are so deep in the mire that they have looked in danger of drowning at times.

But if any improvement in results in 2015 will be more dependent on circuit layout than anything else, there is the impression that team and engine manufacturer have at least some idea of what they need to do for 2016 to start hauling themselves back to where they are expected to be."

[octi_b Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close octi_b]

Citind articolul, mai ca iti vine sa-i lauzi pentru performanta de anul acesta.
Pare ca au sens explicatiile, sa vedem daca se adeveresc in cursa de azi.

[CatalinP Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close CatalinP]

Mie imi suna a scuze, exact cum sunt cele cu piata europeana, ce nu prezinta interes pentru Honda, si d-asta au vanzari catastrofale... Scuze peste scuze...

[Spoon Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Spoon]

iar dublu abandon

1. Sebastian Vettel GER Ferrari-Ferrari 61 laps 2hr 01m 22.118s
2. Daniel Ricciardo AUS Red Bull-Renault +1.4s
3. Kimi Raikkonen FIN Ferrari-Ferrari +17.1s
4. Nico Rosberg GER Mercedes-Mercedes +24.7s
5. Valtteri Bottas FIN Williams-Mercedes +34.2s
6. Daniil Kvyat RUS Red Bull-Renault +35.5s
7. Sergio Perez MEX Force India-Mercedes +50.8s
8. Max Verstappen NED Toro Rosso-Renault +51.4s
9. Carlos Sainz Jr ESP Toro Rosso-Renault +52.8s
10. Felipe Nasr BRZ Sauber-Ferrari +1m 30s

11. Marcus Ericsson SWE Sauber-Ferrari +1m 37.5s
12. Pastor Maldonado VEN Lotus-Mercedes +1m 37.7ss
13. Romain Grosjean FRA Lotus-Mercedes +2 laps
14. Alexander Rossi USA Manor-Ferrari +2 laps
15. Will Stevens GBR Manor-Ferrari +2 laps

Not Classified

Rtd. Jenson Button GBR McLaren-Honda
Rtd. Fernando Alonso ESP McLaren-Honda
Rtd. Lewis Hamilton GBR Mercedes-Mercedes
Rtd. Felipe Massa BRZ Williams-Mercedes
Rtd. Nico Hulkenberg GER Force India-Mercedes

[Delphi Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Delphi]

Se pare ca si Button si Alonso au avut probleme cu cutia de viteze.

[IB Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close IB]

Era de asteptat. Fiind un circuit stradal, lent, cu foarte multe schimbari de trepte, urcat si coborat vibratoare/borduri, transmisia este supusa unui test sever. Oricum, daca cei de la STR aveau o cursa curata, iar Massa nu s-ar fi lovit cu Hulk, McLaren rula cu ambele monoposturi in afara top 10.

Sezonul asta s-a cam incheiat. In mod normal, fara incidente de cursa, nu cred ca McLaren mai termina o cursa in puncte. Pur si simplu performanta lor actuala nu le permite sa termine in puncte in conditii normale. Nu cred ca monopostul in sine are vreo hiba, cat mai degraba problema e in ograda japonezilor.

Ramane deci de vazut la anul ce se mai intampla. Insa asa cum am vazut la Monza, cand Mercedes a folosit toate token-urile permise si au venit cu un pachet considerabil de cai putere, rezultatele s-au vazut imediat in antrenamentele libere de Vineri. Nu stiu cat mai poate Honda imbunatati performanta motoarelor, insa ar trebui sa faca 3 pasi inainte la fiecare pas pe care il face Mercedes. Iar eu unul nu vad a fi posibil asa ceva, in conditiile in care Honda au un deficit de timp de cel putin un an de zile de cercetare/dezvoltare/teste. Mai degraba Ferrari sa faca pasul decisiv in a-i egala pe Mercedes anul viitor, acestia urmand sa faca schimbari radicale motorului in pauza de iarna.

La nivelul tehnologic la care s-a ajuns astazi in F1, in mod normal Honda ar putea sa ajunga la un nivel suficient de competitivitate abia in 3-4 ani. Asta daca nu se schimba regulamentul tehnic pana atunci.

[vtin Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close vtin]

I-auziti una: https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/mcl...17443--f1.html .
Se ascute lupta pentru ultimele locuri, bag seama.

[BlackMagic Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close BlackMagic]

Bun bun

[Delphi Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Delphi]

In cursa de azi din State, au reusit sa mai ia niste puncte. Button, care a plecat de pe locul 12 a terminat pe 7, iar Alonso, care a plecat de pe 9 a terminat pe 10. Au stat si mai bine de atat, cu vreo 13 ture inainte de final erau Button pe 5 si Alonso pe 6.

Hamilton este campion.