K24 / Accord upgrades

[BlackMagic Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close BlackMagic]

Se poate flashui un CL9 actualmente stock, si se vad diferentele, fata de altul stock/reflashed Doc/SKN, etc.

[dinoc Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close dinoc]

Aștept unul stock la reflash.
Pana una alta s-au programat doar clienți care au și alte modificări.

[littlebo Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close littlebo]

Mr. Doc . You r asking same questions ive already responded. But flaked off mines.

1. Are you a real tuner \ builder and understand what you r dong and how it works or just reselling other brands \ firmwares \ kits ? If you arent a real guy then i cant discuss anything with you and answer your tech questions because you have no experience behind your questions or doubts and you have nothing to stand on.

2. You are talking bout these mods and those mods. Stop doing this. Heres clean video with stock AT cl9 vs stock AT CL9 + reflash. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laVcoW-ck4Y I repeat, both cars are bone stock, no any mods. They have 4 cars difference till 150 kph and about 6 cars till 200kph. With just a reflash, not a 3k EUR investement.

3. Heres vid especially for you , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4N-Gkiz1vOA absolutely bone stock type-s vs executive that have stock engine, my custom headers + high flow cat, my reflash, full tank of gas + 2 passangers, modyfied intake with resonator removed. Final speed of this run about 210 kph. You say 3-5 cars , eh ?? Nah bro , its a taillights on the horizon, its 15 cars or maybe more.

3. Dont compare apples to oranges. Read carefully - im talking ONLY about CL9 K24 engine. Dont show us FN2 VS buckets full of bolts, its absolutely senseless in this discussion. I wasnt able to make a "just FW" for CTR with such significant gains as CL9 because CTR K20 engine has MUCH LESS hided potential than K24 and Honda tuned them really well ( F20 also ) and squeezed almost all juices out of it on the factory. To make it move in NA variant you need to invest more than 3k. Period. I guess it was a Honda joke to put such an engine in a civil car LOL.

4. Id like to expain my experience that most of all italian reflashes for honda ( i havent tested others ) are spoof because they dont have ! and dont know ! Honda engines. Period. All they can do is to change rev limit and advance ignition a lil but its not opel or daewoo, its not working in real life on the road. These guys are good in learning ECUs, processors , read\write protocols but they arent tuners for everyhting. Its absolutely not possible to cover ALL manufacturers and ALL engines, its not possible to open FW in editor , change few digits in map with pushing finger in the sky hoping it will work. It will not. Its possible to steal, buy, collect good reflashes from different teams in 1 place but its impossible to know all, only narrow long term specialization can do magic. If you r tuning VAG - tune the VAGs , like the subies - do em, if you are tuning Mazda - stay with it ! My only and last love is Honda. Tuner MUST understand the engine, how it works , its flaws , its good sides , its technology and how it differs from other engines, he must assemble it with closed eyes, only after that he will understand its datalogues and is able to make a good firmware math model. Honda K engines ARE UNIQUE and the most powerful NA I4 in the world, I-VTEC tech is very powerful invention but its insane hard to uderstand it. Without tuning it you cant find a power on their powerplants. There was a reflash for CU2 from one italian company, we tested it here, they set rev limit to 8k and raised ignition. What happened there ? As soon as knock sensor hear the noise ( bad gas , heat , etc ) - all that ignition is retarded by ECU. So you have 10-15 hp bump with first few runs and then ecu relearns and no power bump )) Stock engine power falls RAPIDLY after 7600 rpms, its a nonsence to rev and stress it if its not making power anymore. So they wanted to kill their customers engines ??? Ive offered my buddy that works on service to work with me and flash Acuras, he wasnt happy to hear that and told me they repaired few RDX reflashed by some italian dealers soon had a problems - oil in the intake and turbo rebuild. I havent seen such troubles with Hondata reflashes. Thats an example of the wrong tune.

5. You havent responded to my bet offer and still trying to keep posting doubts based on facts that has nothing common with discussion. Whats wrong man ? Are you in this reality ? Be a real guy and bet with me. Stop flaking. If you dont believe your eyes and wanna touch our cars just collect 10k and we are there in few days. I will even make you a discount for another 10k and also bring my own car, its making 0-200 in about 20-21 secs, like an EVO. On AT !!! tranny, pure NA honda power ))) Good luck earning easy money LOL !

6. Im very sceptic about NA reflashes for different grasschoppers with 1.3-3.0L like fiat, kia , daewoo, chevrolet, renault etc and think at least 70% of em are rip offs because i know the ONLY ENGINE IN THE WORLD that can show such a significant ( amazing ) gains with JUST a tune - its k24a2 for usdm , k24a3 for edm and audm and k24a off rhd JDM cl9. JDM engie is the most powerful among em and shows 3-5 hp more , as usual ))

[rezare Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close rezare]

littlebo, would the gains be as significant with the k24z3 engine as they are with k24a?

[Jozsi Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Jozsi]

So the K24Z3 (CU2) doesn't have such a potential as CL9?

Edit: Sorry rezare, I haven't seen your reply yet at the time of posting.

[littlebo Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close littlebo]

Look guys, CU2 engine is a bro for CL9 . It has its goods and bads, i cant say its better or not.

Heres goods

1. Improved intake , plastic manifold dont heat that bad, they removed stupid coolant port out of manifold also , it has normal TB size for that engine needs.

2. They bumped CR a lil , that helped in torque and power and economy

3 They use 50 VTC gear and advance it much more than CL9 ( i advance it even more ) so low and mid torque are more smooth, high and starts to build earlier.

4 It has CTR type oil pump so its still working on revs like 7800 and higher , CL9 has a safe limit of 7600.

Now tons of bads here .


1. They cheapassed that engine as much as they could, materials arent that strong and quality, i saw dead cams and bearings at 150-180k , never seen it on CL9 even after 400k. Also ive seen leaked\blown head gaskets which is extremely rare on CL9.

2. They cheapassed the head , it has crippled vtec ( only intale cam ) and they made a header right in the head. Its gad damn narrow place and all NA tune attempts ends there. Its possible to swap CL9 or K20 head and use good headers but budget isn for students )

3. Its cams design was made for heavier car to made lots of torque on the low end to push it off the line. Due to vtec lobes are smaller and header is crippled this engine has no NA tune potential but its very good for turbo )))

4. They raised CR but hasnt care how to avoid detonation, this engine is more sensitive to the fuel quality than CL9. Initial FW release by Honda with CU2 in 2008 had pings on our gas and they reflashed em then.

5. Stupid tune once again )) It has tons of potential in stock form but reflash and catless downpipe\hfc replacement is all thats working for this engine. No cams, no revs, built in header killed all of those ideas.

Trannies , especially MT one is better than CL9 , it has normal ratios and accelerates nice and smooth ! Paddle shifters and modes and logic of AT is good !

CU2 has about 100-120kg more than CL9 , thats not good for fan.

And a special thing i wanna shoot their engineers for - wheels , both 17 and 18, gad damn they are SO FREAKING HEAVY !!!!!! Replace em and yoll feel like 2 fat passangers went out of your car.

So assuming that i wanna say - if you wanna build a rocket - go buy CL9 , flash it, bolt on different tricks and it will be fast as hell. CU2 is good for reflashing , almost same bump that CL9 has , pedal feel , response, fuel economy etc. CU2 has very big dip in the middle, stock and reflash have 35 hp difference at some points.

And once again, i want to say that numbers dont speak how engine performs. Only looking at torque and power curves you can say if its rocking or not. Ive recently tried Ssang Young Corando with 2.0 turbo diesel. Dealer sait it has whopping 175 hp and 360nm . It was a worst testdrive in my life. This engine and tranny is a complete crap, powerband is SO narrow, engine is dead till 2k , then 1,5k rpms of power and then its dead again ! Its not a powerplant, its a piece of unusable shit. But looks nice on the paper !! LOL )) `

acest reflash shimba cumva si felul in care functioneaza cutia automata? o face mai rapida in reactia la kick down?

I dont touch tranny logic. And its rensponsiveness dont related to this . The car will respond much better coz DBW tables been tuned. What we will have after reflash... Powerband is much wider , torque is available earlier, your tranny will shift more rarely as engine have enough power to move the car on current gear. Lots of my customers sent me next feedback - we have few places on the road where tranny shifts from 5 to 4 , now its not shifting , all we see its a torque converter unlocks on those places and car pull just fine on current gear.

When you push the pedal and nothing happens till you jump on it with 2 legs - its not a tranny flaw , its stupid DBW tune by Honda for old farts to make it run "more predictable ". I can heal this and pedal \ car feel will be better. Not instant like a cable but MUCH better. Car and power will follow your leg and your will , it will not live its own life ) You need to understand that its a behemoth compared to 1000kg civic , it will never go such easy off the line, thts why i call respond not instant.

[Turkish Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Turkish]

thx littlebo for the answer
my cw2 is even heavier for that matter
but i'm curious if it can be a little more agile that it is right now without decreasing reliability
of course i'm not expecting it to behave like a XKR.. but still

[littlebo Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close littlebo]

thx littlebo for the answer
my cw2 is even heavier for that matter
but i'm curious if it can be a little more agile that it is right now without decreasing reliability
of course i'm not expecting it to behave like a XKR.. but still

Ive just finished a wagon in our region , guy is hella happy and almost pissed his pants. Thanks god im far from so he dealed with my budyy and hasnt pissed on mine )) My dealer told me he is driving as crazy during final tests and all the time shouted - the vtec just kicked in YO ! I can compare his joy with something like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1zUesymByM

Check your ECU partnumber, AT 08-10 must be E73 for europe region and 11-12 restyle cars must carry E74 ECU , have both and can flash your car.

And as for reliability - in 10 years we will see ) If you wanna sleep well just forget bout tuning, pray hard before meal, help grannies to cross the roads and be a good boys.
All reflashes been developed on my friends cars and riding for about half year. Few of em regularly compete on drag or on a track. Initial beta firmwares are running for about a year. So far so good . I even forgot how much fuel i burnt doing this , at least 30 tanks. Dinu had a ride somewhere for about 2000km on reflash , told me he drove it like he stole and looks like its still alive. Mine car see 8400 rpms every time i hit the road, i use any chance to rev it, that engine sound and turbo like acceleration make me nuts ! I made about 30k in such style after i started to tune it. Still have flawless chain , tensioner , flawless compression. It all depends on tune , oil and luck. I know guys whos making 500+ FI hp on the stock engine. K engines are extremely tough and reliable. Any other will fall apart at 8k rpms but not Honda. Gonna try turbo soon !

[merluciu Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close merluciu]

@littlebo: What type of oil do you use?

[littlebo Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close littlebo]

@littlebo: What type of oil do you use?

Motul x-lite 0-30 or eco-nergy 5-30 when 0-30 isnt available in stock, best oil i ever tried. Its not cheap but engine revs so good with it and always virgin clean inside. If some1 wanna go track i recommend 5-40, its more stable at prolonged high temperature. And i also advice to buy JDM oil filters made by tennex or toyo roki , they r much better than US filtech or filters made somewhere in EU. Ill find a partnumber for em later.

And 1 more , if you r rocking hard but want to see your AT living forever then trow in a good radiator and change oil every 30k and not partial 3L but with a full replacement of 8L. You can replace Hondas mineral DW-1 with Ravenol oil , its fully synthetic and holds temperature much better without burning , smelling etc .

[Dan101 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Dan101]

Motul x-lite 0-30 or eco-nergy 5-30 when 0-30 isnt available in stock, best oil i ever tried. Its not cheap but engine revs so good with it and always virgin clean inside. If some1 wanna go track i recommend 5-40, its more stable at prolonged high temperature. And i also advice to buy JDM oil filters made by tennex or toyo roki , they r much better than US filtech or filters made somewhere in EU. Ill find a partnumber for em later.

And 1 more , if you r rocking hard but want to see your AT living forever then trow in a good radiator and change oil every 30k and not partial 3L but with a full replacement of 8L. You can replace Hondas mineral DW-1 with Ravenol oil , its fully synthetic and holds temperature much better without burning , smelling etc .

In eu, the OEM oil filter is made by Purflux, ONE of the BEST!

[littlebo Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close littlebo]

If the purflux you r talking bout is made in France then JDM is much better. To understand this you need to disassemble both to check and compare the valve quality, filtering material quantity and quality. Also you can use gauge to check cold and hot oil pressure so youll see that JDM has less restriction and better filtering capability. Japs always make the best for JDM and everything else for us.

[cata_mahu Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close cata_mahu]

Do you have a dyno graph for the CU2 MT reflash vs stock? I have the SKN soft on mine (which I think is taken from the Italians) and I want to make a comparison with my dyno chart. Other than soft I only have a Comptech intake and a throttle plenum spacer.

[littlebo Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close littlebo]

I dont have my own dyno here and looks like i dont need it at all, tunes are made on the flat piece of road with virtual dyno. I dont pay much attention to graphs and so on , just tune for the max power i can squeeze.
TB spacer is a rip off part, it does nothing, just a shiny part under hood ) Just wait few days, some customers will try my tune and compare it to italian one they have currently and we can see their feedback if its better or not.

Heres my thread http://honda.org.ua/forum/about102474.html , you can use google translate to read actual feedbacks. Maybe you can find few feedback bout italian job somewhere and compare. Its subjective but i cant offer nothing better at this moment.

One more important thing you need to know. Dyno isnt a tool to measure absolute power, its a tool to measure delta between runs in a short term period. For example you come to the tune shop, measured your power at the wheels , they tuned \ flashed your car and measured it once again. You will see how much you get on top. Its not an absolute power , just a delta. Thats how it works. Power can be measured precisely only on the engine dyno using few standart measuring routines. All dynos are different, read different numbers, theres tons of factors that involved in measurement and affect final numbers, temp, humidity, gas, tire pressure , lattitude over the sea and so on. So you CANT compare dyno sheets made in different places on different dynos in the different time. Difference between em can be 10% and even more. For example Stock MT Accord makes avg 160-163whp on Mustang dyno and about 178-182 on Dynojet and about 170-172 on 3rd dyno i forgot its name.

[cata_mahu Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close cata_mahu]

Understood. The deltas I was interested to compare. I have the graph for stock vs SKN reflash and I was curious to see your reflash vs stock and compare the gains across the RPM range.